Curse

Moloch Vein · Jan 03, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

The attraction of Sab's build team is that it's a synergizing team. Most players don't know how to create a synergized team. It's my hope that a necromancer worth his salt should be able to outdo the primitive 3-man combo presented by him (which is very effective, mind you) and tailor it to suit areas.

For more information about synergy in necromancer builds, check out http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10205741

TalanRoarer · Jan 03, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

well done mol :]
you can rest now mate.

Cathode_Reborn · Jan 03, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Seems decent so far, but could use some fixing.

For the MM builds - it's already been discussed many times, Aura of the lich is pretty much better than Flesh golem. The guide should be recommending the use of good elites. Because AotL reduces sac so much, the strong healing from Heal Area becomes unneeded, and you can spec into less costly heals that can do the job just fine. Blood renewal and Spirit Light are both some good choices, as AotL reduces the sac from them. Even better, Spirit light can be used to provide some extra healing for the team.

For pve, I wouldn't recommend the N/D mm type that bring overkill selfheals. Your teams healers would have to be pretty bad in order to need all of that. In AB though, it's a much different thing of course. Again, i'd add AotL as the main elite instead of a variant, especially since it goes very well with Mystic regen.

For necs using AotL, you actually don't want to manually lower your hp too low, because it puts you in more danger of degen/life stealing. AotL will keep the sacs low anyways, even with high hp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Flesh Golem is an excellent crutch for a new MM. If you're running normal PvE play that doesn't involve tank-n-spank mechanisms and doesn't involve upper-10% players, he might even possibly save your life.

If you keep handing an inexperienced player a crutch, they're never gonna get any better. Posting "newb" MM builds with bad elites isn't a good way to teach anyone, whether they're new or familiar with the game already.

SS build - Parasitic bond should be a variant, not standard. Hex removal exists in pve, but it's not very common. Half the time it'll be a wasted slot. Bond and Suffering should never be on the same bar....use one if you needed, but not both. If you are using Suffering in your build, keep in mind that it goes very good with Well of Darkness. I don't understand the part of Insidious being a "crutch". In HM it can rack up damage fast. I wouldn't dis Arcane echo....seems like it was kinda just tossed aside, rather than explaining it's uses. It's not needed, but can be useful depending on the situation. Many people seem to always think that SS is the only skill that would be echo'd....you still have plenty of other spells can it can be used with.

The "alternate" builds are kinda meh....I'd remove them. "Flesh wound" is pretty much wasted in that build since Infuse is there, so you could just bring Draw conditions instead.

PvP SS build - kinda bad. Well of Weariness is useless everywhere. Suffering is not a good way to pressure monks in AB. With those skills, along with 2 selfheals, and a speed boost, the result is an extremely weak offense. Nearly harmless against enemy casters. Selfheals can be good in AB because there's often a lack of monks/healers, but if you're gonna crank up your Shadow arts that high, keep other self protection skills in mind. Monk spells can do a good job for keeping yourself alive, and you get access to condition/hex removal. Even better, they can be casted on allies so you become more useful to the team, instead of being a low-damage nec who's selfheals can only target himself. Keep Mending Touch and Restful Breeze in mind = both are very effective without even putting any points into their attributes. Restful at 0 healing = 160hp heal. I used to hate Healing breeze, even on casters, but after the buff it's a somewhat good heal - 210hp at 8 healing. In AB, a nec usually should have the energy to use it often.

N/Rt build = Can't stress this enough... u_u If you're gonna run a Restoration nec, use Weapon of Warding. It's one of the most powerful Restoration spells, and one of the few with prot-like qualities. Unlike a Nec, a rit can't go spam-happy with it. A Restor nec in pve without Warding is almost inferior to a healing monk. Other than that the build is fine, i'd suggest Spirit light weapon as a variant.

BiP build = this is a guide, right?

Some build examples should be posted. BiP/Orders necs are one of the most versatile builds you can run, because they function fine with with 14 in Blood and arn't often heavy on the energy so you can lower your Soul reaping a tad bit low. You then have lots of free attributes that can be used on anything, whether it be support/healing/protection spells, or something offensive like Splinter weapon/Ancestor's rage to give your melee a nice buff.

I'd put N/x builds that use Soul reaping to do non-nec stuff (N/mo prot, N/rt healer, etc) under "alternate" builds. The guide needs a pve SV build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

When running /mo - Protective Spirit - it being one of the most broken skills in the game - is a SUPERB choice for your skill-bars!

That's very true

In PvE, necs are one of the best classes to put Prot Spirit on. A monk hero with Prot spirit can drain their own energy pretty fast. Human monks have to use it carefully. Necs can go wild with it and still have lots of energy left to do whatever they want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Would be good to have a note on necrosis.

imo, anyone that's somewhat dedicated to their nec and has the time (and patience, since point farming is so damn boring) should get their Sunspear rank up as high as they can for it. 5e for 90dmg on a 2 sec recharge is very good. Necs are abit lacking when it comes to high direct-damage.

Coloneh · Jan 03, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are you telling people to use flesh golem?

boogerboy72 · Jan 03, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

i sadly have to agree with the bashing of flesh golem.

Moloch Vein · Jan 04, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Long post gets long reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

For the MM builds - it's already been discussed many times, Aura of the lich is pretty much better than Flesh golem. The guide should be recommending the use of good elites.

Yes. Aura of the Lich is a better spell than Flesh Golem. So is Order of Undeath. However, and I do repeat myself:

* Order of Undeath requires a very aggressive, almost suicidal playing style to be truly effective. This isn't something to recommend to a newbie.
* Aura of the Lich requires you to know which area is filled with life-sucking monsters, or you die. This isn't something to recommend to a newbie either.
* Jagged Bones isn't an option.

Quote:

For pve, I wouldn't recommend the N/D mm type that bring overkill selfheals.

The N/D build cited uses one healing spell at 8 specification.

Quote:

Your teams healers would have to be pretty bad in order to need all of that.

They often are.

Quote:

If you keep handing an inexperienced player a crutch, they're never gonna get any better.

I disagree with this line of thinking. Would you give a newbie mesmer a bar including Guilt, Shame, Diversion, Ignorance and Blackout?

Quote:

SS build - Parasitic bond should be a variant, not standard. Hex removal exists in pve, but it's not very common. Half the time it'll be a wasted slot.

Half the time it's a wasted slot, half the time it's not. It's a good habit to cover your hexes. It's also a decent heal. We are trying to teach beginner players here.

Quote:

Bond and Suffering should never be on the same bar....use one if you needed, but not both.

Agreed.

Quote:

I don't understand the part of Insidious being a "crutch". In HM it can rack up damage fast.

It's a crutch because your normal position shouldn't allow you to get hit too much, because the duration is quite bad, because it's single target, and because it only triggers on an actual enemy hit.

Quote:

I wouldn't dis Arcane echo....seems like it was kinda just tossed aside, rather than explaining it's uses.

I am strongly in favor of using Arcane Echo in almost all PvE hex builds. You clearly misunderstand me.

Quote:

The "alternate" builds are kinda meh....I'd remove them. "Flesh wound" is pretty much wasted in that build since Infuse is there, so you could just bring Draw conditions instead.

The differences are the following:

* Jagged Bones isn't terribly needed in moderately corpse heavy areas.
* IJAFW has no casting time. It's immune to daze and spell counters. It's far more effective than Draw Conditions.
* IJAFW can be used under enchantment hate.

Quote:

Well of Weariness is useless everywhere.

It's 1 minute of -1 e-regen in an area for 5e, plus burning a corpse. That's a pretty Good thing.

Quote:

Suffering is not a good way to pressure monks in AB.

In 9 cases of 10, AB monks don't know what hexes their partners suffer from.

Quote:

With those skills, along with 2 selfheals, and a speed boost, the result is an extremely weak offense. Nearly harmless against enemy casters.

I beg to disagree. It's a hex pressure build, and it's targetted vs mobs and shrine fights. It's going to stay alive a long time and be a complete nuisance. If you want to have Big Offense as a necromancer, I hate to say it, you should go Bloodspike.

Quote:

N/Rt build = Can't stress this enough... u_u If you're gonna run a Restoration nec, use Weapon of Warding. It's one of the most powerful Restoration spells, and one of the few with prot-like qualities. Unlike a Nec, a rit can't go spam-happy with it. A Restor nec in pve without Warding is almost inferior to a healing monk. Other than that the build is fine, i'd suggest Spirit light weapon as a variant.

Spirit Light Weapon defeats the purpose of the N/Rt which is to spam. WoW is a fine second weapon spell, the guide isn't completed.

Quote:

BiP build = this is a guide, right?

Some build examples should be posted.

Fixed.

(Btw, I'll add a PvE SV.)

One more note is that Protective Spirit is highly useful in HM, but this guide isn't exclusively or even majorly aimed at HM. However if you check the "Synergy" thread you'll notice quite a few PS on those bars.

cellardweller · Jan 04, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Yes. Aura of the Lich is a better spell than Flesh Golem. So is Order of Undeath. However, and I do repeat myself:

* Order of Undeath requires a very aggressive, almost suicidal playing style to be truly effective. This isn't something to recommend to a newbie.
* Aura of the Lich requires you to know which area is filled with life-sucking monsters, or you die. This isn't something to recommend to a newbie either.
* Jagged Bones isn't an option.

I'm going to jump on the no flesh golem bandwagon here. Whilst I agree that OoU and AotL require a certain level of experince to use, FG is simply a bad elite to use because that minion spot will always have been filled more effectively as a bone fiend. If you're not running AotL or OoU, the elite slot would be better served by a secondary class elite like weapon of remedy, expel hexes or cautery signet or for those that don't like support with a nuke like Icy Veins.

The mm guide would be better off with no elite listed and the various options presented as variant.

Moloch Vein · Jan 04, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

^ The above statement forgets that a Flesh Golem is a huge bag of meat with a huge bag of hit points that is easily kept alive in dire need.

Also while a Fiend does attack more often he does not do as much damage as the Golem. Flesh Golem dps is 25.4. Fiend dps is 14.5. Lingering behavior does not compensate for this in the Fiend's favor. With damage buffs it's a different story, true. Nevertheless we don't automatically assume those are in place.

cellardweller · Jan 04, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

^ The above statement forgets that a Flesh Golem is a huge bag of meat with a huge bag of hit points that is easily kept alive in dire need.

Also while a Fiend does attack more often he does not do as much damage as the Golem. Flesh Golem dps is 25.4. Fiend dps is 14.5. Lingering behavior does not compensate for this in the Fiend's favor. With damage buffs it's a different story, true. Nevertheless we don't automatically assume those are in place.

dps is 25.4 for the 10-20% of the time that its not running between quickly disapearing red dots (see fiend dps) or scratching its backside. Meatbag, sure - but that is nowhere near worth an elite slot.

Moloch Vein · Jan 04, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

You're overexaggerating.

Anyway, I don't really understand why I'm discussing this. Flesh Golem isn't a good elite. We all know that. However, it does have some forgiving qualities for a newbie, and anyone denying this is simply being dishonest.

A Flesh Golem has around 600 hit points. While the Flesh Golem doesn't die, as long as you're under Dark Bond, you aren't likely to die either. When the Flesh Golem dies, you can summon a new one.

Despite claims to the contrary a Golem will do more straight damage than any other minion. It will also do this without pushing the MM close to death. (And again, let me repeat myself... I have used Order of Undeath when I do MM since I got Nightfall.)

Cathode_Reborn · Jan 04, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

* Aura of the Lich requires you to know which area is filled with life-sucking monsters, or you die. This isn't something to recommend to a newbie either.
* Jagged Bones isn't an option.

Life stealing is actually somewhat rare in pve. Degen is there, but there's ways to counter it. It shouldn't really be the cause of an AotL mm dying. One problem of not using AotL = an MM with 10 minions that uses BotM will sac alot of hp. One way people try to solve that is manually lowering their hp with runes. Between the high sac and your low hp, one could easily be spiked in battle with bad use of BotM.

Quote:

Would you give a newbie mesmer a bar including Guilt, Shame, Diversion, Ignorance and Blackout?

Abit of a far off example compared to necs, who's spells can usually be button mashed by anyone, unlike mesmers...

But...a new player given a complex build can learn to use it effectively through practice. Just teach them the basics of each spell, and they could learn from there.

Quote:

It's a crutch because your normal position shouldn't allow you to get hit too much, because the duration is quite bad, because it's single target, and because it only triggers on an actual enemy hit.

In NM, Weakened enemies do very little damage at all, making it safe to let them hit just to trigger IP. HM is different....you should be trying to avoid as many hits as possible, but that can't always happen. Depending on the situation, IP can be good at taking out specific targets. If the majority feels that it's a "crutch" though, it should be removed from the guide. It rarely ever leaves my bar though.

Quote:

* IJAFW has no casting time. It's immune to daze and spell counters. It's far more effective than Draw Conditions.
* IJAFW can be used under enchantment hate.

Even under the effects of Daze, the 1/4 cast on Draw means that you probably won't even get interrupted, unless you're under focused fire...in that situation, you wouldn't wanna deep-wound yourself. The bigger drawback is it's elite status. There also isn't many Paragon skills a necro can make good use of. A monk or two can often take care of single-target removal anyways.....it's the partywide conditions that become a bigger problem. I probably wouldn't use my elite on either though. Extinguish is also a good way for necs to relieve pressure.

Quote:

It's 1 minute of -1 e-regen in an area for 5e, plus burning a corpse. That's a pretty Good thing.

in 15secs, Weariness would drain 5energy....which is really nothing at all. It'd take an afk player to stand in the Well any longer than that. Attempting e-denial in AB is usually pointless. Even worse for a nec. People die often and come back. The only time e-denial is actually useful in low-end pvp is by a Mesmer with Aneurysm. Other than that, it's harmless and a waste of skill space.

Quote:

In 9 cases of 10, AB monks don't know what hexes their partners suffer from.

You're only using 2 offensive hexes, Suffering is better off being replaced by P-Bond or Defile defenses. You're not really getting much out of Suffering. If you were running a curses degen build, it'd be somewhat more useful.

Quote:

I beg to disagree. It's a hex pressure build, and it's targetted vs mobs and shrine fights. It's going to stay alive a long time and be a complete nuisance. If you want to have Big Offense as a necromancer, I hate to say it, you should go Bloodspike.

The main problem is the choice of selfhealing skills. Casters that go x/A for survivability should be using skills like Smoke powder defense, Shroud of distress, Return, Dash (which is there already), and possibily Recall. Feigned Neutrality is a somewhat good choice too....i just never liked it cause the recharge. You're only making use of random healing skills that arn't very effective. If you're not attacking when Shadow refuge ends, you get a lousy heal from it. If you want 2 healing skills and a speed boost. go N/D. Pious haste is your speed, Vital boon + Sig of pious light is your healing. At 8 earth prayers, Vital + Pious sig become a 220hp heal every 8 seconds. Like Heart of shadow, Vital can also be pre-casted.

Amei Leng · Jan 04, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Hmmm, I have 3 toons in GW, a Blood Necro, a MM Necro, and a SS Necro

I happen to like both Life transfer and the golem.

Coloneh · Jan 04, 2008, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amei Leng

Hmmm, I have 3 toons in GW, a Blood Necro, a MM Necro, and a SS Necro

I happen to like both Life transfer and the golem.

well, you suck at GW. sorry. that dosnt mean you cant huve fun playing, just dont give build advise.

-Makai- · Jan 04, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

After mentioning Icy Veins and Putrid Bile earlier, I thought I'd add my two cents.

Here's my usual Icy Veins template. It's somewhat of a hodge podge of different skills, so if anyone has more "concentrated" ideas, they would be welcome.

Soul Reaping: 12 + 1 + 2
Death Magic: 12 + 1

[skill]Icy Veins[/skill] Putrid Bile [skill]Rotting Flesh[/skill] Necrosis [skill]Well of Suffering[/skill] [skill]Putrid Explosion[/skill] [skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill] Optional

The last slot can be any skill that fits the situation. I typically use Withering Aura, Sunspear Rebirth Signet or [skill]Signet of Sorrow[/skill]. Intensity (providing a high Sunspear rank) or [skill]Rising Bile[/skill] (if used properly) may also work.

The trick is to use Icy Veins and Putrid Bile on one target, then use Necrosis to deal damage. Given the usual nature of Heroes and Henchmen, you should try to accomplish this as quickly as possible. Next, use Well of Suffering on the first corpse to soften up nearby foes. Then cast Icy Veins and Putrid Bile on the next target...wash, rinse and repeat, but replace Well of Suffering with Putrid Explosion. The best part about Icy Veins, IMO, is its relatively short recharge time, thus allowing it to be chained over and over again.

blue.rellik · Jan 04, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

well, you suck at GW. sorry. that dosnt mean you cant huve fun playing, just dont give build advise.

Am I evil for roflmaoing at this?

Moloch Vein · Jan 04, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Life stealing is actually somewhat rare in pve. Degen is there, but there's ways to counter it. It shouldn't really be the cause of an AotL mm dying. One problem of not using AotL = an MM with 10 minions that uses BotM will sac alot of hp. One way people try to solve that is manually lowering their hp with runes. Between the high sac and your low hp, one could easily be spiked in battle with bad use of BotM.

You won't be spiked under Dark Bond. You will be spiked from life steals under Dark Bond. Life steals are the main scare for an MM regardless of AoTL. AoTL just makes it that much more dangerous.

Please, try to understand where I am coming from. I am trying to give a newbie player a simple build that can be run in every area he'll enter during his first run-through of GW with little tailoring. The only other option for this, actually, is Order of Undeath, because the player chooses himself when to run the Order. What happens when a newbie necromancer runs Order is that his army dies because he gets so scared from the Order saccing he forgets to cast BoTM. And, finally, both spells are mentioned in the guide as replacement skills for more advanced players.

Quote:

a new player given a complex build can learn to use it effectively through practice. Just teach them the basics of each spell, and they could learn from there.

So, in other words, you would tell a newbie mesmer to run a bar based on Diversion, Guilt, Shame, Ignorance and Blackout?

Quote:

The bigger drawback is it's elite status. There also isn't many Paragon skills a necro can make good use of.

As noted the normal elite skill for the minion bomber is often quite unnecessary. If run on a hero the N/P build will effectively remove just about every condition from the party through a spell with one second recharge and zero casting time.

Go run this general build versus a Mandragor GW:EN mob (the Fevered Dreams/Tox/etc combo.) Then come back and tell me it's useless.

Quote:

Extinguish is also a good way for necs to relieve pressure.

Terrible recharge.

Quote:

in 15secs, Weariness would drain 5energy....which is really nothing at all.

It would drain 5 energy from every player standing in the well for this time, yes. Also since the effect from the Well is seen as harmless (as you also think) people will not bother with it, but it will weaken the opposing side on a general scale. This is especially true given the shrine fight, shrine mobbing behavior in AB.

Quote:

The main problem is the choice of selfhealing skills. Casters that go x/A for survivability should be using skills like Smoke powder defense, Shroud of distress, Return, Dash (which is there already), and possibily Recall. Feigned Neutrality is a somewhat good choice too....i just never liked it cause the recharge. You're only making use of random healing skills that arn't very effective. If you're not attacking when Shadow refuge ends, you get a lousy heal from it. If you want 2 healing skills and a speed boost. go N/D. Pious haste is your speed, Vital boon + Sig of pious light is your healing. At 8 earth prayers, Vital + Pious sig become a 220hp heal every 8 seconds. Like Heart of shadow, Vital can also be pre-casted.

This argument makes sense. The N/D option as you outlined is superior as a general build to what I posted, so I'll change it. Still though... you don't seem to read through my entire posts, as I do yours. SPD was already listed as a variant, which means two of your name-dropped skills were either in the build or variant-ed.

Quote:

Suffering is better off being replaced by P-Bond or Defile defenses. You're not really getting much out of Suffering.

Defile Defenses is already in the build, more or less, listed as a great variant. When it comes to Suffering, yes, you are getting something out of it. You are turning a lot of bars blue.

To address the IV/PB/PE build suggestions posted I'm not going to try to teach necromancers to blow up corpses in PvE. It's really, really counter-productive.

upier · Jan 04, 2008, 09:17 AM // 09:17

I really fail to see the issues with Golem.
Since we basically have 2 situations when it comes to this elite:
1. Situation 1
A new player.
No unlocked elites skills (can't use a tome), caps Golem.
Noe depending on the guys secondary - we are presented with the question - is Golem worth the slot?
There might be better options - such as Expel if the dude is a mesmer secondary - but all in all - Golem is perfectly fine to use.
There are no other useful death elites available to him AND the game is so easy that it allows for sub-optimal builds.
THEN we finally get to the areas where we can cap better elites - Aura or Order. Now Golem can be finally dumped.
The problem is that now the MM can be dumped.
As a first necro of the team - there is no excuse to not run Enfeebling/Shadow or Reckless. Which means curses. Or Orders. Which means investing into blood.
As a second necro on the team - you are taking the slot of a paragon or a warrior. In which case you already decided to run a sub-par team - so you might as well run Golem also.

2. Situation 2
The player completes the game but continues to play it.
Golem has it's use. Going as a lvl 20 in areas that are clearly not suited for lvl 20s - Golem is the best Death elite. But then again - Mending is a good skill to put on ones bar there.
MMing in Kourna-like areas - Order.

Golem isn't a bad elite because of geographical reasons.
Golem is a bad elite because of gameplay reasons.

kaldak · Jan 04, 2008, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Meh, Flesh Golem may be a rather weak elite, but I think you guys are over reacting. It might not be the strongest build for an MM, but an MM can run with no elite and still be a very effective team member. So why not throw it in if you're worried about the downsides of your other options? Along that same line of thought, Icey Veins or Reaper's Mark might also be considered safe alternative elites for the MM.

However, I will say that OoU with about half your minions being Vampiric Horrors really isnt too risky, and I believe that offers a superior build without being too complex. They steal an amount of health for you roughly equal to what you're loosing. Sure, it still takes a bit of skill to use it optimally, but even someone new at it should be able to survive well enough to not be scared away.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 04, 2008, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Flesh Golem is terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Also while a Fiend does attack more often he does not do as much damage as the Golem. Flesh Golem dps is 25.4. Fiend dps is 14.5. Lingering behavior does not compensate for this in the Fiend's favor. With damage buffs it's a different story, true. Nevertheless we don't automatically assume those are in place.

hi
jagged bones

(btw the N/P is a waste of a character slot)

Jagged · Jan 04, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Thanks for the OP. This should get a sticky. It really helps us newer guys

I've been searching the forums for a good 55 solo nec build.

Is this still considered a valid 55 Necro build?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=107937

Found this one too:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ide-id1853.php

They both seem kind of old, just looking for one guide I can use since I have to buy skills and gear to do this. Thanks.